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Thought Leadership

The Labor Law Insider - What Just Happened, and What's Next? 2023 Labor Law Retrospective, Part II

 
Podcast

    

This episode of the Labor Law Insider concludes our discussion on the changes wrought by the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) in 2023 and their implications for employers in 2024 and beyond. Adam Doerr and Rufino Gaytán join host Tom Godar to offer their thoughts on NLRB decisions that prohibit the inclusion of confidentiality provisions in release agreements.  They also provide insight into how employers must contend with a new risk calculus to implement their policies and actions regarding employee relations.

The discussion also explores the significant increase in strikes and whether regular use of that provocative tactic is likely to continue. The Insiders also analyze how successful union organizing has expanded in 2023 and whether these trends reflect the greater popularity of unions in the broader public context.

The episode concludes with a focus on proactive leadership by employers to limit their employees’ desire to unionize at all and to communicate effectively with unions that already represent their employees. Join the Labor Law Insiders for this stimulating podcast.

Read the Transcript

This transcript has been auto-generated

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[Music]

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hello and welcome to the Husch Blackwell Labor Law 
Insider podcast I'm Tom Godar your host and I'm

0:00:09.160,0:00:15.760
glad that you've come along in this podcast 
we welcome guests with practical expertise

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and experience regarding labor law issues and 
they share their insights related to this ever

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changing area the breadth of developments in 
laws related to unions and individual workers

0:00:28.160,0:00:34.120
rights that we are experiencing under the Biden 
appointed National Labor Relations Board and led

0:00:34.120,0:00:41.200
by General Counsel Jennifer Abruzzo is unprecedented 
these developments demand that employers and those

0:00:41.200,0:00:47.640
giving counsel to organizations stay tuned into 
these changes and make necessary adjustments to

0:00:47.640,0:00:53.640
their practices and policies when President 
Biden was elected he promised to have the

0:00:53.640,0:01:00.520
most union-friendly Administration ever and 
he is fulfilling that pledge so buckle up and

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hang on for this wild and wonderful ride in the 
world of labor law welcome back to the labor law

0:01:08.080,0:01:13.520
Insider we're really excited to have you join us 
for part two of our discussion of the labor law

0:01:13.520,0:01:21.280
developments in 2023 and what we can anticipate 
in 2024 Rufino Gaytan and Adam Doerr have been helping

0:01:21.280,0:01:26.760
me with this labor law Insider podcast and we're 
going to continue our discussion of some of the

0:01:26.760,0:01:32.480
major developments that occurred last year with 
the National Labor Relations Board and then some

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of the ways in which you our friends and clients 
and guests might anticipate in taking steps to

0:01:39.480,0:01:45.160
well ameliorate some of the potential problems 
that would come if you are not ready for the

0:01:45.160,0:01:53.400
changes affected by labor law in 2024 let's start 
again with you Adam thanks Tom it's great to be

0:01:53.400,0:02:00.200
back recapping the labor law Whirlwind we saw in 
2023 we talked quite a bit on our last episode

0:02:00.200,0:02:06.560
about Cemex which turned Union organizing and 
voluntary recognition on its head and the board

0:02:06.560,0:02:11.800
stair recycle decision which made at least five 
work rules in every employer's handbook unlawful

0:02:11.800,0:02:17.600
under the ACT we also talked about strike activity 
and a number of other issues but we didn't get to

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talk much about the nlrb's direct attack on 
confidentiality and non-disparagement rules

0:02:23.920,0:02:30.480
in Severance agreements specifically but really 
in any other context the upshot for me as I read

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those decisions the McLaren decision and and the 
GC memo is that we can't restrict employees rights

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to talk about the circumstances leading up to the 
severance because that is relating to the terms

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and conditions of their employment at the time or 
the existence of the severance because that too is

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part of the conditions of their employment 
albeit the separation of their employment

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um what we have to now limit that to then is 
confidentiality of the financial terms which

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the general Council suggested is still fair game 
to maintain the confidentiality of and then limit

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the kinds of comments that are maliciously false 
or knowingly false instead of just the facts and

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circumstances leading up to the severance yeah 
and you think about that it's all big deal so

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you don't have a non-disparagement clause in 
there or confidentiality clause and so forth

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um but the reality is that some of these toxic 
employ who have to be let go want to have a big

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mouth and they want to brag about how they got 
the employer and how awful the employer was so

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some of my clients are just not going to be at all 
uh excited about having an agreement that doesn't

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have confidentiality or non-disparagement rafino 
are there other ways to skin that cat or are we

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sort of stuck you know I I think it's a similar 
calculation here in terms of the risk right you

0:03:54.200,0:04:01.000
can try to include those non-disparagement 
type restrictions in the agreement and you

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know the confidentiality as well and hope that the 
employee actually just lives up to the agreement

0:04:06.960,0:04:11.200
knowing that you have a risk with the board 
at the end of the day though when whenever I

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bring the this issue up to clients at the time 
of offering somebody a severance agreement a

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lot of clients have opted and I've seen this is 
of course just anecdotal from my practice but

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I've seen more clients decide not to offer any 
Severance at all and take their chances if the

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employee files any sort of a charge because they 
don't want to have to deal with this uncertainty

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of if I pay this person a pretty tidy sum of money 
to keep quiet but I can't actually enforce them or

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enforce that requirement like what am I really 
buying I'm buying just the security of not being

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sued but even then that's a somewhat of a limited 
restriction as well so I think that the if the

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board was trying to create a more favorable field 
for departing employees I I don't know that that's

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working because I think the the flip side is some 
employers will just say okay we're not going to

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give you anything because we can't actually 
buy your silence and if you're going to go be

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loud about it anyway we will we will preserve 
our opportunity to defend our claim anyway you

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can uh go pretty far on including things like non 
defamatory conduct but beyond that it's going to

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be very difficult to have something that might 
not be non forceable and even itself be a ulp

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oddly enough under the stair cycle decision it's 
a it's a world of difference and I would call 2023

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maybe the change in Risk calculus how are you 
looking at the risks that have been created by

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a number of things uh including board action 
both GC general counsel memoranda as well as

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the cases that have been decided which are going 
to be subject to appeal we'll see if the courts

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love all of this stuff but the other part of the 
calc that I want to sort of switch to right now

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is what I'll call the warm and fuzzies about 
unions and how that has affected their ability

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to use strikes as a mechanism to uh great make 
greater demands in the marketplace and to engage

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in Union organizing um and they can do both of 
those things with more tools now than they had

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had previously so we've heard back in various 
times of the year I think beginning in June J

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July August um the 2023 was the year of the strike 
and now we've got the whole thing in the bag Adam

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was 2023 a time when unions felt striking was 
going to once again be advantageous to them

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it almost all been but abandoned for a decade or 
15 years strikes have certainly been strikes and

0:06:50.880,0:06:57.680
other labor activi is hard to always pinpoint and 
label of protest and picketing and Strikes um put

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them in their respective buckets but overall labor 
protest and strike activity did continue to rise

0:07:04.360,0:07:13.040
in 2023 and that was after a surge in 2022 which 
came on the heels of stober in late 2021 so the

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unions have continued to push forward with strikes 
and and similar activity and that that increase

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sure did carry through to 2023 including with 
some very high-profile strikes um in in a time

0:07:26.600,0:07:32.800
when uh interest rates and inflation were through 
the roof and just it was it was it was quite an

0:07:32.800,0:07:38.720
impressive run of of strike activity and and at 
least claims of success too it's hard to always

0:07:38.720,0:07:44.280
know exactly what the Delta is that comes out of 
a strike but certainly a lot of headlines and a

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lot of seemingly favorable press for the unions 
yeah GM and Ford and the Chrysler organization

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all had the the big three response to the strike 
activity and it didn't take money out of all of

0:07:59.040,0:08:03.600
the employes Pockets which is one of the you know 
big deals for employers right to say if you want

0:08:03.600,0:08:07.080
to go on strike you're going to have to have one 
hell of a big increase which I'm not prepared to

0:08:07.080,0:08:11.840
offer to ever make that up in lifetime but when 
you only have 10% of the employees engaged in

0:08:11.840,0:08:17.440
the bargaining out at any given time it doesn't 
necessarily Nick everybody's pocketbook it becomes

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an even more potent uh weapon interestingly 
in Wisconsin one of the units found out that

0:08:23.920,0:08:29.280
their plant was being closed as a result of the 
negotiations even though they too were on strike

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weird stuff like that so do we predict that we're 
going to continue to see this U move towards job

0:08:35.720,0:08:42.120
actions towards work stoppages towards protest 
and picketing in 2024 rafina what do you think I

0:08:42.120,0:08:48.720
believe so I think that the unions have um come to 
the conclusion that this is an effective tool for

0:08:48.720,0:08:55.640
them to use I don't know how effective it actually 
is I mean you mentioned the the cost issue a bit

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Tom but I do think that in many situations it 
does become a drain on the employee and and

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certainly employers you know suffer financially 
as well from loss revenue or production as well

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but they're in a much better position typically to 
hang on and and kind of Outlast the employees the

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thing that I think sort of gets lost in the weeds 
with strike sometimes is this idea of you know

0:09:23.240,0:09:29.600
extracting more money from employers and if you 
do that you can do that by hitting the employer

0:09:29.600,0:09:37.200
by creating a disruption to their production um 
I think it's not as cut and dry as employees tend

0:09:37.200,0:09:42.400
to believe I do believe that you know at the 
end of the day if you are an hourly employee

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and you are not coming into work you're not going 
to get paid and you have to do the analysis of if

0:09:48.480,0:09:54.960
I miss a week of work for this strike how much 
of a raise do I need to get in this contract to

0:09:54.960,0:10:00.880
actually make up for that lost money and then at 
that point you're just breaking even so whatever

0:10:00.880,0:10:05.400
you know you're going to need even more than 
that so the longer the the strike lasts I think

0:10:05.400,0:10:11.560
it becomes even less obtainable for an employee 
to reach the goal that they really want in terms

0:10:11.560,0:10:17.400
of bargaining I think the better option in terms 
of strike activities and things of that nature

0:10:17.400,0:10:23.600
are to um engage in those sorts of methods like 
you mentioned Tom where only a percentage of the

0:10:23.600,0:10:28.640
workforce is coming in and out and they obviously 
need to do that in a way that you know still

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impact and hurts the employer's bottom line but 
not necessarily the entire unit but from my own

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again um you know just experience in the last 
year or so I I've definitely seen an uptick in

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even just the threats of strikes right I mean that 
alone is something that makes an employer kind

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of pause a little bit and think hard about where 
their bargaining position should be and the fact

0:10:52.720,0:10:58.120
that more and more unions are actually following 
through and engaging in strikes activities I think

0:10:58.120,0:11:03.040
should be on every employer's radar especially 
those who are currently unionized I agree with

0:11:03.040,0:11:07.320
you know I I I just have two two things to add 
to that why I think that strike activity will

0:11:07.320,0:11:14.000
continue in 2024 and that's because I think one a 
lot of contracts maybe haven't had the chance to

0:11:14.000,0:11:20.240
go through collective bargaining since coming out 
of the pandemic in 2021 or 2022 so they might feel

0:11:20.240,0:11:25.080
that this is their first chance to threaten or 
go out on strike if there are cba's coming up for

0:11:25.080,0:11:31.920
negotiation this year and with the presidential 
election looming the fall unions might see this

0:11:31.920,0:11:37.280
as at least their last sure chance to have a 
friendly Administration we we don't know what

0:11:37.280,0:11:42.040
will happen in November but at least until then 
I think unions are going to continue their push

0:11:42.040,0:11:49.760
very hard um so we've had um more than 500,000 
people affected by work stoppages last year um the

0:11:49.760,0:11:57.120
other thing that we're seeing an increase in is 
Union organizing activity over the past few years

0:11:57.120,0:12:03.640
uh we've seen a number of uh different scenarios 
and Union win rates have increased Adam tell us a

0:12:03.640,0:12:09.520
little bit first of all about what the unions are 
doing in the organizing World in 2023 unions are

0:12:09.520,0:12:16.440
just cool now again I think it's um when you when 
you look at the polls it's shocking how dramatic

0:12:16.440,0:12:24.600
the difference is in Union sentiment based on age 
of all the different factors that seems to be the

0:12:24.600,0:12:33.840
single largest difference today's youngest workers 
are the ones who most at least publicly say that

0:12:33.840,0:12:38.760
they support unions and they have a positive 
impact so for one reason or another unions have

0:12:38.760,0:12:43.240
done a good job being cool again and I don't know 
if that's um just part of the administration's

0:12:43.240,0:12:49.760
work as well but that to me is one thing that 
tells me that this isn't going away anytime soon

0:12:49.760,0:12:56.200
because it's not just about somebody's political 
ideology or their or anything else it's it's an

0:12:56.200,0:13:03.520
it's a generational difference and so we have 
somewhere between 13 and 14400 maybe even 1500

0:13:03.520,0:13:09.640
elections last year depending on uh whether they 
were just RC elections or others and the unions

0:13:09.640,0:13:16.400
were winning More than 70% of those elections 
how does that compare rafino to Union election

0:13:16.400,0:13:24.080
activities over the last um decade in the last few 
years it's certainly a um an increase in the win

0:13:24.080,0:13:31.120
rate um you know typically you have a little bit 
more of a level playing in terms of the outcomes

0:13:31.120,0:13:38.480
but you also have to keep in mind that when 
a union either demands recognition or files a

0:13:38.480,0:13:44.960
petition for an election they already believe 
they can get majority status and they've been

0:13:44.960,0:13:50.640
planning this for months um ahead of time before 
the employer catches wind of the fact that there's

0:13:50.640,0:13:59.080
an organizing drive going on so you expect to have 
um you know more better than 50% outcome for Union

0:13:59.080,0:14:07.040
here that said to Adam's point there is you know 
I think some of that success in recent years for

0:14:07.040,0:14:13.520
unions can be chalked up to this idea that yeah 
they are cool again um they are making very good

0:14:13.520,0:14:22.160
use of social media in a lot of instances if we 
go back to the Amazon situation where Amazon had

0:14:22.160,0:14:29.000
a former employee arrested on their grounds and 
you know that is sort of uh of course recorded on

0:14:29.000,0:14:35.640
video and then spread on social media uh there's 
a sort of sense of like a social justice component

0:14:35.640,0:14:41.480
which also coincided very heavily with all of 
the the political issues that were going on a

0:14:41.480,0:14:47.280
couple years ago and especially with regard to 
police uh you know issues and and all of those

0:14:47.280,0:14:54.320
things so the media coverage around it I think has 
certainly helped if we go to 20123 with the Screen

0:14:54.320,0:14:59.920
Actors and The Writers um you know again that 
is a demographic that just by its very nature

0:14:59.920,0:15:06.120
is sort of cool right I mean they these are the 
people who make and produce and write shows that

0:15:06.120,0:15:12.560
um we uh use for entertainment and can all sort 
of relate to and they're using a lot of those

0:15:12.560,0:15:20.080
different media issues uh very effectively and 
I do think that to the extent that an employer

0:15:20.080,0:15:27.400
has any sort of um indication that an organizing 
Drive is going on in their workplace their most

0:15:27.400,0:15:32.320
important issue is is going to be to try to 
communicate with those employees and to try

0:15:32.320,0:15:37.680
to address as many issues as they can before an 
election petition is filed you talk about the uh

0:15:37.680,0:15:43.640
social media and all that I think I think part of 
it is also how they've done a good the unions have

0:15:43.640,0:15:52.160
done a good job of getting out the message that 
union busting is disgusting and so any resistance

0:15:52.160,0:15:59.160
or opposition or refusal to just let a union in 
by voluntary recognition that a automatically

0:15:59.160,0:16:04.120
gets companies labeled a union Buster and the 
bad press that comes along with that I think

0:16:04.120,0:16:10.800
that's also helped fuel the generational change 
and the social media use uh in in organizing I

0:16:10.800,0:16:16.800
agree 100% Adam there there have been uh many 
clients over the last uh you know couple years

0:16:16.800,0:16:22.000
who are very hesitant to even Mount any sort of 
a campaign against the union effort right so they

0:16:22.000,0:16:29.520
take a very hands-off approach and as expected 
it results in their Workforce becoming Union I

0:16:29.520,0:16:37.240
do think that employers need to keep in mind that 
the short-term benefits of not being labeled a bad

0:16:37.240,0:16:46.120
guy or Union Buster or a a non-union friendly uh 
you know um establishment those gains impact your

0:16:46.120,0:16:52.280
workplace potentially you know forever uh because 
now you've got this bargaining representative that

0:16:52.280,0:16:58.120
is charged with negotiating on behalf of your 
employee so you have to take that into account

0:16:58.120,0:17:03.800
when making those decisions about how to campaign 
if at all but you know you shouldn't just do it

0:17:03.800,0:17:09.880
to avoid the negative press that you might get 
on in the short term you know we've talked um

0:17:09.880,0:17:15.800
a lot in the last year or two on the labor law 
Insider about these changes and when I ask as

0:17:15.800,0:17:23.560
I normally do towards the end of a podcast so now 
what lots of times the answer is greater training

0:17:23.560,0:17:31.240
awareness and so forth I would think that we have 
to Triple down on that that is that you have to

0:17:31.240,0:17:36.440
go and take a look at your handbooks and determine 
whether or not they may have some Provisions that

0:17:36.440,0:17:42.280
under the stair cycle decision are not going to 
pass muster anymore that you're going to have to

0:17:42.280,0:17:49.360
look at training your supervisors and your line 
staff about positive employee relations without

0:17:49.360,0:17:55.240
giving up you know your ability and your need 
to appropriately and proactively manage and

0:17:55.240,0:18:01.800
your last comment um about you know unions are 
cool and busting is disgusting suggest that you

0:18:01.800,0:18:07.840
better have your campaign before the union shows 
up in other words you better be investing now or

0:18:07.840,0:18:14.720
at least my advice to clients is investing now 
in positive proactive uh relationships with your

0:18:14.720,0:18:20.600
employees so that you don't have to look like 
uh the bad guy becoming educated when the union

0:18:20.600,0:18:27.160
shows up but say no look all along we've been 
protecting our joint interest we are together in

0:18:27.160,0:18:32.920
this um are we seeing a move towards those kinds 
of activities by our clients or um are we still

0:18:32.920,0:18:38.120
seeing a little hesitancy because they might not 
have been touched directly by a union campaign or

0:18:38.120,0:18:44.280
a threat of a strike there's still a fair amount 
of hesitance to I think recognize or admit that

0:18:44.280,0:18:49.960
a company is vulnerable to Union organizing or 
maybe there's a lack of time or it's not in the

0:18:49.960,0:18:54.400
budget there's aund reasons why we might wait till 
tomorrow quote unquote to address it because it's

0:18:54.400,0:19:00.920
not it doesn't feel urgent today but I am seeing 
more clients ask for a review of their existing

0:19:00.920,0:19:06.720
materials or a pulse check on what they should be 
keeping their eyes out for or doing that Frontline

0:19:06.720,0:19:11.600
supervisor training just so that they know what 
to look out for and what it means um and that's

0:19:11.600,0:19:17.680
that's critically important at a minimum making 
sure you know who your supervisors are and make

0:19:17.680,0:19:22.960
sure they know what to do even if it's just to run 
out the chain so we can get get going but the more

0:19:22.960,0:19:29.680
that you can have this um prepared and ready to go 
beforehand the less you'll be Chas in that 20-day

0:19:29.680,0:19:35.320
window that we now have before an election good 
advice Adam and Rufino last word thoughts as we

0:19:35.320,0:19:43.680
close out 2023 and look to 2024 absolutely uh I 
like to tell clients who do not yet have unions

0:19:43.680,0:19:52.080
ask yourself what do I need to do as a manager 
or supervisor or executive to really make my

0:19:52.080,0:19:58.360
employees think hard about whether to support 
a union so in other words if the employee asks

0:19:58.360,0:20:06.520
you know themselves what can a union do for me 
here if the list is you know two pages long good

0:20:06.520,0:20:13.760
luck if the list is only a couple of items you're 
in a really good spot so that requires it really

0:20:13.760,0:20:20.960
demands communication between management and 
the employees to understand what issues make

0:20:20.960,0:20:26.640
the employees tick how do you address those 
problems when they become recurring problems

0:20:26.640,0:20:31.000
especially you want to make sure that you have a 
plan of action to address them resolve them and

0:20:31.000,0:20:36.560
prevent them coming up again so being proactive 
really and it doesn't mean you have to spend

0:20:36.560,0:20:42.680
hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands 
or thousands of dollars you just need to focus

0:20:42.680,0:20:50.280
on how do you make life at work better for your 
employees and how do you explain to them when

0:20:50.280,0:20:56.080
you can't do some of the things that they really 
want you to do for them whether it's a cost issue

0:20:56.080,0:21:01.720
or those sorts of things transparency is a word 
that I have heard more in the last year when it

0:21:01.720,0:21:07.880
comes to collective bargaining than I'd ever heard 
in my you know prior 13 years of practice as as

0:21:07.880,0:21:14.720
a labor attorney so employees want to understand 
the decisions you're making and why you're making

0:21:14.720,0:21:20.600
them and the more you communicate with them 
about those issues um I think you have a much

0:21:20.600,0:21:26.560
better relationship with them and it makes that 
question of whether I need a union a little bit

0:21:26.560,0:21:32.640
more favorable for you as the employer I love that 
I summarize that sort of attitude as treating your

0:21:32.640,0:21:38.400
employees like adults um giving them information 
that's the same kind of information you use to

0:21:38.400,0:21:44.640
make decisions especially hard decisions trusting 
them to understand that hard decisions sometimes

0:21:44.640,0:21:49.760
have to be made but this has been really helpful 
I know that um you know where I on the other side

0:21:49.760,0:21:55.080
that is not the lawyer but the client calling 
you up and having you with a sort of outside view

0:21:55.080,0:22:00.200
that's broader than just that one uh organization 
or even in one industry or one geography is is

0:22:00.200,0:22:06.240
going to be helpful and I hope that our listeners 
have felt that as well that this broad stroke

0:22:06.240,0:22:12.040
treatment of what happened in 2023 and what it 
augures for 2024 allows you to be a little bit

0:22:12.040,0:22:18.880
better prepared for what is likely to be a pretty 
challenging uh next couple of years so gentlemen

0:22:18.880,0:22:24.000
thank you very very much uh for joining the labor 
law inside our podcast sharing your experience

0:22:24.000,0:22:31.680
and your insights thanks so much thank you 
thanks for having to me take care now [Music]

Professionals:

Thomas P. Godar

Of Counsel

Adam C. Doerr

Senior Counsel

Rufino Gaytán III

Senior Counsel