This transcript has been auto generated
00;00;00;00 - 00;00;22;26
Jonathan Porter
Welcome to another episode of Husch Blackwell's False Claims Act Insights podcast. I'm your host, Jonathan Porter. We talk a lot on this podcast about how the False Claims Act is enforced, and the various ways that companies can get into False Claims Act. Trouble is, a lot of those. But there's a very practical side to FCA enforcement. That to me is just as important, could be more important.
00;00;23;02 - 00;00;45;16
Jonathan Porter
And that's working with the Justice Department, DOJ attorneys. They have way more power than any other civil litigants attorneys. If they don't like your client. They can make things really, really bad and they can push for catastrophic things early in investigations. For example, they can ask agencies to suspend payments or suspend participation in whatever program is that issue.
00;00;45;19 - 00;01;06;24
Jonathan Porter
That's a really, really bad thing. Or on the other hand, if DOJ attorneys are sympathetic to your client, they can make things really good. They can cut investigations short. They can give you certain assurances, and they can even affirmatively dismiss a qui tamif they want to. So working well with DOJ attorneys is a really important concept.
00;01;06;24 - 00;01;24;02
Jonathan Porter
And that's what we're going to talk about today on the podcast, because it is something that sometimes lawyers are really bad at. I think it's a skill and it's something where if, you know, if you have a DOJ experience, you sort of understand what are the good ways to work with DOJ and what are the bad ways to work with DOJ.
00;01;24;02 - 00;01;49;19
Jonathan Porter
And that's why it's great to have people on your team who have that experience. And so today, joining us to talk about this is my fresh out of DOJ colleague Todd Gee. So Todd recently joined Josh Blackwell following a long distinguished career in the federal government. Todd was formerly the chief counsel at the US House Homeland Security Committee, and he was an AUSA in the District of Columbia.
00;01;49;21 - 00;02;12;21
Jonathan Porter
He was the Deputy Chief of Main Justice's Public Integrity Section, which tackles the nation's biggest public corruption cases. And then he was the presidentially appointed Senate confirmed U.S. attorney for the Southern District of Mississippi. So, Todd, I am firmly entrenched in the Deep South, and I'm thrilled to have another Southerner to battle all these lawyers in the firm with these, you know, funny accents.
00;02;12;21 - 00;02;24;23
Jonathan Porter
And so, Todd, I'm thrilled that you're with us here at Josh Blackwell. I think our clients are going to benefit from you. And right now, I'm thrilled that you're joining the podcast to tell our listeners a little bit about how the Justice Department works.
00;02;24;25 - 00;02;46;06
Todd Gee
Thanks for having me, Jonathan. It's great to be here. You know, I really enjoy joining the firm and using some of the experiences that I've had at the Department of Justice to help clients get the best possible outcome when they're dealing with the department or other federal agencies. And as a Southerner, I'm stuck here in Washington, D.C., instead of back home down south here at hush Blackwell's office here.
00;02;46;06 - 00;02;52;28
Todd Gee
I'm really glad to be here, but it's nice to always have another person like you to get to chat with about these kind of issues.
00;02;53;00 - 00;03;11;28
Jonathan Porter
That's right. Todd. So let's start with the caveats. So you just finished a term as U.S. attorney, and I'm pretty sure your office didn't magically wrap up all of their cases right before you left. So surely there's some stuff lingering. And I don't want our listeners to think that you're talking about specific investigations or specific cases that may violate your local rules.
00;03;11;28 - 00;03;23;18
Jonathan Porter
Not so sure about that. So let's start with this caveat. We're talking generally about how investigations and cases work, how DOJ generally works and not any particular case. Is that fair?
00;03;23;20 - 00;03;25;28
Todd Gee
Absolutely. Thanks for that caveat I agree.
00;03;26;01 - 00;03;53;06
Jonathan Porter
Todd, let's start by talking about how DOJ works internally. One thing I think most people don't fully understand is the relationship between line level attorneys and DOJ supervisors. I've said several times on this podcast that AUSA have a tremendous amount of autonomy, and that's true. But they do still answer to people, usually a deputy chief and a chief and a first assistant and a US attorney, him or herself.
00;03;53;09 - 00;04;04;13
Jonathan Porter
And so, Todd, you've worked in a bunch of these roles. Why don't you tell our listeners about how line level DOJ attorneys work with supervisors, especially when it comes to FCA matters?
00;04;04;15 - 00;04;39;06
Todd Gee
Well, let me start by saying I can't agree enough with you, Jonathan, on the basic point, though, that an AUSA or a main justice attorney, if it's a main justice only case, just an enormous amount of power and authority, and I don't think it can be emphasized enough that it's really important for clients to have an attorney that understands how to work well with line prosecutors or line civil attorneys, because if you don't have an attorney that can do that, you are not in a position to get the highest probability of a good outcome.
00;04;39;14 - 00;05;03;17
Todd Gee
But in terms of supervision, I think first, look, I've been an AUSA, I've been a main justice attorney, a main justice supervisor, and then a U.S. attorney. And so I will sort of break that down for a second, because I do think it matters the amount of supervision between a line attorney and their supervisors. It really depends. First on is it an AUSA on the case or is it a main justice attorney, or is it both?
00;05;03;19 - 00;05;36;02
Todd Gee
I think it's really important for opposing counsel to try to figure out, if at all possible, what degree of main justice involvement there is in a matter. You know, it's important to figure out is main justice fully partnered in this case. So in an FCA realm is the civil division fully partnered with the U.S. Attorney's office? There's a civil attorney that's working on the case on a daily basis, helping out or on the criminal side, some criminal component like the public integrity section or the fraud section, fully helping out.
00;05;36;04 - 00;05;54;06
Todd Gee
Is it monitor? That's sort of the next tier down where, you know, the AUSA is mostly doing the case, but they kind of have to fill main justice in a little bit more often. That's a little more common in, say, like the national security sphere, where NSD monitors a lot of cases but doesn't necessarily partner on as many.
00;05;54;09 - 00;06;23;13
Todd Gee
And then there's delegate. The AUSA is just doing the whole case. Maybe there's some box that's got to be checked from time to time with name justice, but not always. It's really important to figure that out as opposing counsel, because if main justice is partnered or highly involved in some way, that's going to affect the supervision. And who's the deciders a lot in the FCA space specifically, I think that an AUSA handling FCA case has a lot of authority.
00;06;23;16 - 00;06;41;15
Todd Gee
There's two big decision points where supervision is going to come in. That's the side and a settlement, and those are the places to really focus on. But if you're a supervisor at DOJ, but also if you are a opposing counsel trying to hit one of those decision points, you know when to see IDs getting issued and when settlements are being discussed.
00;06;41;18 - 00;06;57;14
Jonathan Porter
Todd, another critical skill in this job is just knowing how to work with DOJ attorneys, knowing what their goals are, why they're doing the things they're doing, how to get good results. To me, that's a bit of an art. There's not a book and you can study it and then recreate what it is that we do. So I think it's a bit of an art.
00;06;57;16 - 00;07;17;17
Jonathan Porter
The best defense attorneys that I worked with at DOJ, they made me want to help their clients. They were great advocates, but they did so in a way that didn't make anything seem adversarial. From your vantage point, God, in your years as a line DOJ attorney. What are your tips for working with line level DOJ attorneys?
00;07;17;20 - 00;07;52;27
Todd Gee
So some of them, I think are personal and some I think are sort of actual technique based. Look, on the personal level, there's no need to be a jerk. I think that's so often because we're all litigants, and there's this vibe between us that we let that leak into our personal interactions. And like it or not, that has an impact on a line attorney at DOJ or I think any federal agency, if you're a jerk, that line attorney is going to be a lot more willing to work till two, three, four in the morning building that case because you were a jerk.
00;07;53;03 - 00;08;11;18
Todd Gee
So always is defense counsel don't give that AUSA the extra energy for the midnight oil by being a jerk. On a personal level, you can litigate for your client. You can argue for your client, but you don't have to make it personal. I had some cases. The deputy chief of public integrity, you have your own cases, and you also supervise folks.
00;08;11;21 - 00;08;40;15
Todd Gee
And also as an AUSA in DC, that some of these cases were incredibly challenging, sensitive cases, sometimes with a lot of media attention. And the best attorneys were ones that knew that line between arguing for their client and just being a jerk. And sometimes it's as simple as making it very clear to the AUSA look like, if I were in your shoes, I understand that that's what you would want me to do, but my client just won't agree to that.
00;08;40;18 - 00;09;01;23
Todd Gee
And sometimes that slight separation between look, I hear you about maybe this is being reasonable, but my client's not going to let me do that. Creates that kind of human element that sometimes you need to keep that relationship going to get the best for your client later on. I think in terms of technique, tell your story. Obviously, sometimes you've just got a client who is 100% guilty.
00;09;01;23 - 00;09;26;07
Todd Gee
They did it. They did the fraud. They planned it from day one. They did the murder from day one, whatever planned the whole thing. But often that's not the case. There's some shade, some context to what happened. Maybe they really did do the crime on purpose, but there was some context for why they did it. Or maybe in your view, they lack the intent but made the false statement.
00;09;26;10 - 00;09;48;14
Todd Gee
So tell your story. I think in the violent crime context, we would often see the situation where the defense attorney is waiting till the last minute to sort of spring the surprise witness at trial. You see that in violent crime. I experience that in a murder case once where my star witness was somebody who saw the murder out the window, we get to trial and the defense would somebody out who saw the murder out of a different window.
00;09;48;17 - 00;10;04;13
Todd Gee
We had, you know, never heard of that witness before. They took the stand at the trial. It didn't hold up well under cross-examination. And we still got the person guilty. But, you know, it kind of thing happens in some cases. But in the white collar world in, say, the FCA world, there's going to be very few surprises by the time the cases advance.
00;10;04;15 - 00;10;25;24
Todd Gee
So if as defense counsel, you can tell your story early on, try to help the AUSA or the DOJ attorney understand the context of what was happening. Try to help them and examples of that. I mean, you know, like a couple weeks ago, Delta just had a big FCA settlement with DOJ related to PvP fraud down in your neck of the woods in Georgia.
00;10;25;24 - 00;10;49;05
Todd Gee
Jonathan. And I promise you, I don't any personal knowledge, but I promise you as part of that case, a big part of it was the attorneys for Delta trying to make sure that DOJ understood everything that Delta executives and employees were struggling with during the pandemic just to stay afloat. And that kind of context matters. So try to help with the context, try to help with the defenses.
00;10;49;08 - 00;11;06;06
Todd Gee
You know, if you've got a defense that's either a legal defense or maybe just a level of defense in public corruption, it's not an actual legal defense, but often one of the defenses is friendship. You can still bribe someone who is your friend, but if the public official and the person trying to bribe them, they're very, very close friends.
00;11;06;09 - 00;11;24;18
Todd Gee
That may be a case that isn't going to go to trial or is going to get a better deal earlier on. So be super advocates for your client on explaining that friendship. By the time this thing, if it gets really closer to trial, the government is going to know all this anyway. So don't try to hold your cards overly much.
00;11;24;18 - 00;11;42;29
Todd Gee
Try to tell your story of what you think happened, what the defenses were, what the context was. There's no need to hide that in general. Maybe sometimes. But you know, most of the time be more friendly. Who says? I think defense counsel sometimes are unwilling to do that. Usually because the AUSA is not sharing a lot of information with them.
00;11;43;02 - 00;12;02;09
Todd Gee
And I think particularly defense counsel that have never been a DOJ, they get very frustrated by that, that the reality is for a whole variety of legal reasons, policy reasons, etc. DOJ may not be telling you very much, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't want to tell your story back to DOJ. That may help you get the best resolution for your client.
00;12;02;12 - 00;12;27;03
Jonathan Porter
Thanks, Todd. Yeah, so I love no need to be a jerk. That should just be like a PowerPoint slide that we put on for our brand new white collar associates. Because really, no need to be a jerk when you're at DOJ. People really do not. They're rarely jerks to you. My first civil litigation case, I was local counsel here in Georgia, and after leaving DOJ, my first civil litigation, I was stunned at how opposing counsel was name calling and everything.
00;12;27;03 - 00;12;49;04
Jonathan Porter
So you do get sort of insulated from how a lot of lawyers talk to each other when you're at DOJ. But look, there's a reason for that. You know, in DOJ world, you better be super confident in your ability to win at trial. And you better having your clients okay with all this. If you're going to be a jerk from the start, you say they just have way too much autonomy for you to risk getting on their bad side.
00;12;49;04 - 00;13;02;26
Jonathan Porter
Yeah, I don't think that you need to do that to get a good result for your client. Like I said, at the top you can have a say you could push for suspensions, or they can push to dismiss your qui tam and make all your problems go away, like there's just too much autonomy for you to be a jerk to them.
00;13;02;26 - 00;13;25;01
Jonathan Porter
So that's point number one. Don't be a jerk. I like that. So, Todd but a lot of times, even if you do the best job you can, you're not a jerk. You put your client in the best position possible. A lot of times you're still going to arrive at a best case scenario that your clients don't like. They're not going to like what DOJ is offering them, be it a plea or a big FCA settlement with intentions of a press release to follow, as always.
00;13;25;04 - 00;13;45;25
Jonathan Porter
And they want to know what else can we do? What option there that I explore with clients is going over the line attorney's head to meet with a supervisor. Sometimes it's a chief, sometimes a U.S. attorney depends on the situation. So me personally, I was a reasonable AUSA, so that rarely happened to me. But I do remember once where I liked the way that the defense attorney did it.
00;13;45;28 - 00;14;11;22
Jonathan Porter
And I remember once where I did not like the way that the defense attorney did it. So Todd closes out by talking about requests to meet with a supervisor. How can we do that without totally torching our relationship with the line attorney? And what's the best way to advocate for our clients with the DOJ supervisor? You know, in my experience, U.S. attorneys, they're probably going to default to taking the AUSA side more often than not unless you give me a good reason.
00;14;11;22 - 00;14;17;12
Jonathan Porter
So how can defense attorneys make those supervisor meetings successful? So,
00;14;17;15 - 00;14;42;15
Todd Gee
The first is a basic rule that I encourage defense counsel to never, never, never break, which is do not appeal above the line attorney's level without telling them that you are going to, again, because I agree with you, the line attorney is going to get a lot of deference, whatever they're recommending. But in general, more than likely that's what DOJ is going to continue doing.
00;14;42;17 - 00;14;59;24
Todd Gee
And the last thing you want to do is appeal that line attorney. They find out about it from their supervisor. And boy, you have really given them a reason to burn the midnight oil on your client's case moving forward. So I always tell them, and you don't have to tell them how you're going to do it or at what level.
00;14;59;24 - 00;15;15;20
Todd Gee
Look, if you're going to appeal it to a super high level at DOJ, you don't have to tell them that, but tell them that you're going to. And I think you can do it in a respectful way. It could be as simple as you've been really great to work with. We appreciate the cooperation we've had to this point, but I've consulted with my clients.
00;15;15;21 - 00;15;33;05
Todd Gee
Always say to put it on your client, consult with my client, and we just kind of think that a different outcome is still appropriate here. And we're going to appeal that up the chain. I hope you can understand that. And I think that most AUSA is particularly sophisticated. AUSA is that have been doing white collar work for a while.
00;15;33;08 - 00;15;57;19
Todd Gee
And certainly Maine justice attorneys, where appeals are much more common than in the US Attorney's office. Know that it's got to happen. So always tell them and do it in a respectful way. But look, most folks certainly at Maine justice appeals are very common. And in US Attorney's office is relatively common. Next thing, make sure for clients out there that look, there are many great people that can communicate with DOJ that didn't serve a DOJ.
00;15;57;19 - 00;16;15;19
Todd Gee
There are a lot of great counsel out there that didn't. So I don't want to be exclusive. But that said, in general, I think you're better off with an attorney who understands DOJ in some capacity or understands the government agency that they're doing in some capacity. I think that sometimes there's a belief that that means you want an attorney who's from that office.
00;16;15;22 - 00;16;32;26
Todd Gee
That's not always necessarily the case. You know, sometimes you can hire an AUSA that's from that office. But there's a back story on why they left and you're buying all that baggage. When now they're in the room with the first assistant or the criminal chief or the US attorney album, but you're peeling it up. So sometimes it's good to have somebody from the office.
00;16;32;26 - 00;16;56;24
Todd Gee
But I think in general you want someone that understands DOJ and understands it at that level. So same sort of thing. Look, if you are appealing to the assistant Attorney General's office, the Deputy Attorney General's office, some main justice level component, it's important to have someone that understands Maine justice. And that may not mean a defense attorney who was a line level AUSA in some district a long way from Washington.
00;16;56;26 - 00;17;24;20
Todd Gee
Make sure you got an attorney that understands DOJ and understands at the level that you are needing to appeal at, and often that means someone that has that experience. And then look in terms of the meeting for counsel out there. First off, don't be shocked. The line attorney is almost always going to be in the meeting. I can't tell you how many appeal meetings I've been at where either when I was a supervisor or when I was U.S. attorney, where less experienced defense attorneys walk in the room to do their appeal.
00;17;24;26 - 00;17;50;15
Todd Gee
And you can tell that they're shocked that the line attorney is in the room. The line attorney not always, but most of the time they're going to get included, even at a much higher level of appeal, at the very least, just to hear what the arguments are. So don't be surprised when the line attorneys there, and I think in those meetings it's always important to, you know, don't demean the AUSA even if they're not in the meeting and don't demean the agents that did the investigation.
00;17;50;18 - 00;18;13;23
Todd Gee
You can disagree with their version of how they perceive the facts or disagree with what the facts are. But generally speaking, attacking the USA, attacking the agent. Unless you've got one of those rare cases where you actually have a good argument of selective prosecution or or politicization in general, that is a bad idea. And then focus on explaining context.
00;18;13;23 - 00;18;48;05
Todd Gee
Explain what was going on with your client at the time this happened. Explain the context around damaging documents, damaging witnesses. Context is just always so important. And I think that context is something that sometimes line AUSA is or line attorneys are going to fail to focus on because they're so buried in the spreadsheets, the witness statements, etc.. And that's your best shot when you're on appeal is to focus on the context, because you got a supervisor who knows a little bit about the case, or a U.S. attorney that knows a little bit of the case, but you're appealing to their common sense, and context is common sense.
00;18;48;08 - 00;19;06;10
Todd Gee
I think that is the key thing to hit in an appeal meeting. And then defenses, because again, sometimes there will be times where that AUSA goes just from day one, they're like, the friendship defense. It's not really a good defense to bribery or the materiality offense. I don't really think it's going to be a good defense here to false claims.
00;19;06;13 - 00;19;27;07
Todd Gee
But you know, when you're in that meeting with that U.S. attorney and you really focus on why you think there was no materiality in this false claims, that context, or why you think that there's something that rebuts the elements of the crime or the claim on the civil side. Sometimes, again, a supervisor is going to hear that and then they're going to have more questions for that.
00;19;27;07 - 00;19;47;13
Todd Gee
AUSA and so I think context and defenses and really explaining them in a commonsense way, don't don't get buried in a ton of documents when you're in the appeal meeting context and defenses. And then, you know, also just be prepared. I've been in very few appeal meetings where either they were appealing to me or they were appealing above me where you got much out of it.
00;19;47;16 - 00;20;07;25
Todd Gee
Don't expect a lot of Q and A, you're not going to be able to ask the assistant attorney general, what are you guys focused on here? They're not going to answer. Don't expect a lot of Q and A, don't expect a lot exchange, a lot of appeal meetings that I've been in. They the defense attorney gave their spiel and it basically ended right after that with the person in charge saying, thank you.
00;20;07;25 - 00;20;29;16
Todd Gee
So much. This is very helpful. We're going to be talking and we'll get back with you. Don't expect to get a lot of exchange, and don't be upset that you're not getting a lot of exchange, because that's a good way to have a good appeal meeting in badly. When you display frustration that you're not seeing anything from across the table because DOJ is these, if they're experienced, is pretty rarely going to give you much feedback.
00;20;29;19 - 00;20;54;23
Todd Gee
And then, you know, I'll add follow up until you get an answer, follow up, send that email. If you actually got in front of a senior DOJ official, email his or her chief of staff. If you got in front of the U.S. attorney, email the files. Email the crime chief until you get an answer. Now, you're often gonna get the answer from the line AUSA when the line AUSA comes back and says, hey, we're proceeding, it is usually a bad idea to then go back to the top again.
00;20;54;26 - 00;21;14;10
Todd Gee
Accept the answer when it comes from the line AUSA as a result of the appeal. But till you get that answer, follow up. Because sometimes these kinds of decisions, especially when it's being made by busy U.S. attorney, a busy senior main justice official, it may take a long time and maybe behind the scenes a lot. Time is good for you because they're asking a lot of questions.
00;21;14;18 - 00;21;36;03
Todd Gee
I had times when appeals were made to me as U.S. attorney, and I asked a lot of questions afterwards, and that takes a while. So don't feel like a long period is bad for you. But I don't think anybody's usually offended. If you follow up with, hey, want to make sure you're aware of these additional points or, you know, just checking in to see if you needed anything else as you were considering the meeting that we had with you, that sort of thing.
00;21;36;05 - 00;22;09;11
Todd Gee
I think appealing is an extremely delicate thing. And the most important thing is what you started with, though, Jonathan, which is you want to do it in a respectful way with the line attorney, because their position is probably going to be what wins out. I will give one last practice point here, though, which is if you have a case where there is a main justice attorney partnered with an AUSA, and you feel that one side or the other is on your side, more, whether it's at the line level or higher at the supervisory level.
00;22;09;13 - 00;22;28;13
Todd Gee
It is a delicate dance, but I think very good defense attorneys do a good job at splitting that difference of opinion, starting at the line level and then above again, maybe the main justice attorney, because they have lower caseloads, they've been able to focus more and there a better appeal for you than the AUSA or alternatively, the AUSA.
00;22;28;13 - 00;22;43;00
Todd Gee
You've tried a bunch of cases where you can't get this main justice attorney to listen to you. You go and have a cup of coffee with the AUSA, and you kind of cut a deal sometimes being justice attorneys or uses whichever side will get a little upset when you talk to one side or the other, you got to be careful about that.
00;22;43;03 - 00;23;04;29
Todd Gee
But I've seen that difference split rather successfully sometimes and split at an appeal level as well. You know, very rare that a senior DOJ official is going to do something different than what the US attorney wants, but that's quite possible, particularly if it's a US attorney who's not a very experienced US attorney. It's a US attorney who had never been at DOJ or not been a DOJ long.
00;23;05;01 - 00;23;26;13
Todd Gee
Maybe much more likely that the main justice officials are willing to overrule them. So sometimes you want to try to look for that split. If main justice is involved in the case or if you can get them involved in the case, maybe it's just the US Attorney's office on the case, but you see some opportunity to get Maine interested to get some component that may be interested more.
00;23;26;16 - 00;23;39;09
Todd Gee
That can be very helpful if you've got a false claims case and it doesn't have a relator involved, and it seems like it's just the US Attorney's office and you think that they're being unreasonable, try to see if you can get the civil fraud section to be involved.
00;23;39;16 - 00;23;48;05
Jonathan Porter
So those are phenomenal insights. I'm so, so happy that you walked us through all that. I think you're spot on. Just in terms of the basics, I can't tell you how many.
00;23;48;05 - 00;23;51;05
Todd Gee
Times I hear about defense attorneys messing up the.
00;23;51;08 - 00;23;53;13
Jonathan Porter
Don't go over the line at USA head without.
00;23;53;13 - 00;23;54;12
Todd Gee
Telling them all.
00;23;54;15 - 00;24;18;29
Jonathan Porter
That happened to me. I didn't like it didn't turn out well in the US. Attorney took my side and you know, relationships were torched after that. That's far from the only time that that happens. It happens just a ton and it shouldn't. You laid out Todd the right way of doing it, which is fronting it with the line level attorney saying, look, I feel strongly about this, especially when you're coming at it from some sort of a policy thing, like you're saying, look, there's this thing in the Justice Manual that says this.
00;24;19;01 - 00;24;43;07
Jonathan Porter
I know for a fact other cases have been treated this way, the way that I'm asking you because of X, I just love the opportunity to talk to someone about this, because I don't know that you're properly crediting what it is that we're talking about here. The same thing. If there's a new guidance out there from leadership, you know, President Trump put out the sub regulatory guidance bar earlier this year, this similar to the brand memo from the first Trump administration.
00;24;43;07 - 00;25;00;22
Jonathan Porter
And a lot of agencies just ignore that. And so if you're in a situation where you think, hey, this is soundly within President Trump's memo on sub regulatory guidance, and the AUSA just says tough. I feel strongly about what I'm doing. I think at that point going up and saying, look, I just want someone else to weigh in on this from a policy matter.
00;25;00;22 - 00;25;20;09
Jonathan Porter
Is this something that the department should be doing? That's the right way of doing it. But knowing how to do that, Todd, is something that is really, really important. And so, Todd, I'm thrilled that you're now on our team because I think our clients are going to benefit from your perspectives here. I'm thrilled that you're with us. And, Todd, just thank you for coming on the podcast and telling our listeners about DOJ.
00;25;20;09 - 00;25;21;17
Jonathan Porter
I think this was excellent.
00;25;21;20 - 00;25;23;12
Todd Gee
Thanks for inviting me, Jonathan. This was a lot of fun.
00;25;23;19 - 00;25;47;10
Jonathan Porter
So I want to close by talking about the stakes at play here. We talked in our last episode about how two pharmacies faced a potential $27 billion FCA judgment following trial. You may have also read about a pharmaceutical company's efforts to get an appellate court to reverse $1.6 billion judgment following a loss in FCA trial that happened last month, around the time we put our last episode out.
00;25;47;12 - 00;26;10;14
Jonathan Porter
But I fear people hear those stories and they say, yeah, that's just a rounding error for mega corporations. This has nothing to do with me. But that's not so. These issues may matter even more for the companies that legitimately have their very existence on the line. These issues are very real for health systems, physician groups, defense contractors, importers thinking about tariffs.
00;26;10;19 - 00;26;37;19
Jonathan Porter
For them, moving a decimal over a spot in your FCA judgment might be the difference between staying in business, paying your employees, and maybe folding up shop. And how you work with DOJ might just be the difference between those two outcomes. One example came out a couple of weeks ago. Two people in South Dakota were indicted for government fraud, convicted, sent to prison, and only then did DOJ file a false claim.
00;26;37;19 - 00;26;59;12
Jonathan Porter
That complaint trying to get tribal damages and penalties for things two people had already been convicted of. They ended up with an awful problem sitting in prison, turning into an even worse one, sitting in federal prison and now owing millions of dollars they didn't before. If DOJ doesn't like you, they can crush you. As those two guys in South Dakota found out.
00;26;59;15 - 00;27;17;15
Jonathan Porter
You've got to know how to work with DOJ to get just results. And that's why I hope we've offer a glimpse of in this episode. And that's what we're going to continue to talk about on this podcast. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Todd. There's more to come on this podcast, so keep listening to us however you listen to this one.
00;27;17;17 - 00;27;22;21
Jonathan Porter
Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.